Hi Armin,

I reread your original question to me and realized that I did not include a response to your 2nd sentence -

>> You continue to insist on the "it is finished" ... .

Posted by: Armin Krakolinig | 29 December 2008 at 12:59

My 1st response is Posted by: Art Telles | 29 December 2008 at 3:13

The reason for this 2nd response is to clarify "why" the last words of Jesus... "it is finished"... absolutely must be associated with what you said is my "stress" about my "invention" -

>> You also continue to
>> stress your invention of the expression of
>> the "incarnation atonement"
>> that I do not find so in the Bible.
>> Why do we need so many unbiblical words and expressions?
>> Why do we not use more just the biblical way of presenting the truth?

Armin, my very new Austrian and "see you at the resurrection" internet friend, what is "the"... "biblical"... way of presenting the truth?

What is an "unbiblical" word and expression?

The "moral influence theory of the atonement" is also not a biblical expression, yet fellow Christians say that the "idea" is biblical… and there’s the rub, isn’t it? Either the "idea" has a biblical and solid "ROCK" foundation, or it does not.

The "incarnation at-one-ment" is also not a biblical expression, but it is definitely a biblical "idea" supported by a solid "ROCK" biblical foundation while the "moral influence" theory of the "atonement"… on the cross AND in our hearts… does not have a solid "ROCK" biblical foundation.

While the 2 word expression, "incarnation at-one-ment" is not a biblical expression, the "idea" is because Jesus is

… Emmanuel, "God is with Us"
… in bodily form
… in an indissoluble "union"
… when Jesus "emptied"
… himself of deity to be
… "1 with God AND 1 with us"
… to our eternal benefit.

So, I thought, why not express the same 5 words, Emmanuel, "God is with Us" in the 2 words "incarnation atonement" and also "incarnation at-one-ment" to better express the original and unique

… "union" of creator and creation
… in Jesus,
… the ONLY 1 "Son of God"
… and the ONLY 1 "Son of Man"
… the "ROCK" of our salvation
… in whom "God was reconciling the world to himself"
… while we were "still" sinners.

Jesus said to go... proclaim... the gospel... Period.

That is exactly what I'm doing by using "other words" such as "incarnation at-one-ment" to "proclaim the excellencies of HIM who has called you out of darkness into HIS marvelous light" (1 Peter 2: 9).

"IT"... "IS"... "FINISHED"...

When Jesus said "it is finished," the "IT" part of the phrase could NOT have been spoken without the incarnation of Jesus, right?

And, whatever the "IT" part meant to Jesus on the cross, the "IT" part is obviously referring to what "IS" happening at the cross... and "IT" is "IS" happening only because of the incarnation of Jesus, right?

And, whatever the "IT" part meant to Jesus on the cross, the "IT" part is obviously referring to what "IS" happening at the cross… and is at that moment being "FINISHED"… at the cross... and "IT"… "IS"… "FINISHED"… at the cross… only because of the incarnation of Jesus, right?

And, whatever the "IT" part meant to Jesus on the cross, Jesus did NOT say "IT"… "IS" now AND "will be" in the future "FINISHED"... eventually... sometime… after "continuing" thousands of times in the "real presence" of the Roman Catholic "transubstantiation" MASS… or even one time in a 2 phase ministry in heaven.

Jesus said "IT"... "IS"... "FINISHED"... today... on the cross... and to "show" you what I mean, I will now breath my last breath… bow my head… and... die. (For future movie makers, this is where the screen fades… to… black…)

Without the incarnation of Jesus, the cross is not possible, right?

The "influence" part of the "moral influence theory of the atonement" could NOT have been "FINISHED"… on the cross… when Jesus died… could it?

Obviously not… the "influence" of the atonement on the cross could NOT be finished on the cross…

End of debate… Period.

The "moral influence" theory of the "atonement"… on the cross AND in our hearts, i.e., our "response" to the cross event… does not have a solid "ROCK" biblical foundation because Jesus said "IT"… the incarnation at-one-ment "IS"… at this moment… "FINISHED"… on the cross… not on the cross AND also in our hearts.

Question –

What’s wrong with the cross "casting" a moral influence to grab our hearts? Isn’t that good news too?

Answer –

It sure is… just don’t call the "heart grabber" aspect of the influence… "the gospel"… or a clarification of "what is the gospel"… or an enhancement to our understanding of "what is the Gospel"…

What Is The Gospel?

… The gospel was initiated by God
… from the nano-second Lucifer sinned
… "before" the foundation of the world
… and it came to fruition
… in the "incarnation at-one-ment"
… the indissoluble "union"
… of creator and creation
… in the ONLY 1 "Son of God"
… in the ONLY 1 "Son of Man"
… that was "sealed"
… by the ONLY 1 death
… of the ONLY 1 Jesus
… ONLY 1 time
… ONLY on 1 cross
… and was eternally "revealed"
… by the ONLY 1 resurrection
… not from life after (and continuing) during death
… from ONLY death
… of ONLY Jesus

Our response or lack of response has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Atonement "at" the Cross… it was ALL about ONLY Jesus.

This is the Gospel

… "faith once for all delivered to the saints"
… by the early church
… before the moral influence of the cross
… AND the "heart grabber" aspect of the theory of the atonement
… ever appeared in history.

Obviously, the heart grabber influence aspect of the theory could not have been "finished" on the cross by… ONLY Jesus… could it?

That's what is meant by the "incarnation at-one-ment" phrase, and using "other words" to express "IT"... "IS"... "FINISHED"... to our eternal benefit.

What Did "IT"... "IS"... "FINISHED"... Mean to Jesus… Then… Now… Forever?

This ONLY 1 at-one-ment, this ONLY 1 eternal and indissoluble "union" of creator and creation when Jesus, Emmanuel, "God is with Us" in bodily form for our eternal benefit, this is the "IT" that was finally "finished" when Jesus… on the cross… said "it is finished," breathed his last breath, bowed his head and died.

The incarnation at-one-ment was decisively fulfilled… his death "sealed" the deal, so to speak.

His death "sealed" the eternal "emptying" himself of deity, who he was, 1 with God alone… before he became sin… for us… and died forever… the wages of sin.

When Jesus died, he not only died to who he used to be, ONLY1 with God alone, he also died to "seal" the eternal and indissoluble "union" when we became "a new creation" in the "Son of God" who became forever the "Son of Man"… 1 with God AND 1 with Us… forever.

Whatever the "IT" part may mean
... to me
... to you Armin
… to Nic
… to Elaine
… to Tom
… to Dave
… to Bob
… to Herbert Douglass
… to Des Ford
… et al

"IT" is what "IT" is, right… and we can neither take away from the "IT" that "IS" already "FINISHED"… on the cross… nor can we add to "IT"… ever… can we?

Why… because "it is [FINALLY] finished"… our Substitute said so.

For the "substitute" "IT"... "IS"... "FINISHED"...

As I mentioned in the previous post to you, Armin, as well as in other posts on this blog, "incarnation at-one-ment" is simply a phrase I use to avoid the "baggage" that the word "atonement" carries... such as the moral influence theory of the atonement and the effort to divorce the "idea" of substitution from what Jesus meant when he said "it is finished"… at the cross…(my emphasis).

From the nano-second that sin, without a cause, mysteriously came into existence in Lucifer, i.e., from "before" the foundation of the world, the "incarnation at-one-met" lamb of God was slain... and the "incarnation at-one-met" came into fruition when Jesus "emptied" himself of deity… he did it himself… and this is when he became "1 with God AND 1 with us" to our eternal benefit.

The heart of the "substitute" issue is best understood by studying the "original" sanctuary service ceremony on the ONLY 1 day of atonement, the ONLY 1 day of at-one-ment when those "called out" of Egypt, the children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had applied to them the blood of the "substitute" lamb that was sprinkled on the mercy seat ONLY 1 time yearly… the ceremony that the Israelites as a nation MUST experience ONLY 1 time each year.

On the cross, "something" was finished... FINALLY ... in fulfillment of

... the sanctuary service ceremony
... ONLY on the day of atonement
... when ONLY the high priest
... sprinkled the atoning blood
... on the mercy seat
... between the wings of the 2 angels
... on top of the ark of the covenant
... that contained Aaron's rod that budded
... and the jar of manna
... and the foundation to the whole sanctuary daily and yearly service...
... the written "law of the testimony".

The day of atonement, the mercy seat sprinkling of atoning blood at-one-ment ceremony was "fulfilled" by

1 – the "incarnation" of Jesus when he "emptied" himself of deity
2 – the "at-one-ment"… the indissoluble "union" of creator and creation
3 – the not visible "sealing" of the at-one-ment by the visible blood spilled
4 – the visible death of the visible body of Jesus
5 – after he said "it is finished."

The atoning blood, the lamb and the LAMB

The lamb

... The lamb
... and the blood of the lamb
... was the "substitute"
… that was provided
… "by the high priest himself"
… for the sins of the people
… by sprinkling
… the atoning blood
… on the mercy seat
… the lid on the ark of the covenant
… that contained the law of the testimony
… in the most holy place,

The LAMB

… Jesus,
… OUR Great High Priest,
… fulfilled the role
… of Aaron the high priest
… and just as Aaron himself
… provided the lamb
… as the "substitute"
… for the sins of the people,
… so also did Jesus himself
… provide the LAMB
… as the "substitute"
… for the sins of the people
… and forever
… "put away sin"
… once for all
… on the mercy seat
… of the cross

… Jesus at and on the cross
… was the ONLY 1 "fulfillment"
… of the "substitute" lamb
… and the "substitute" blood of the lamb
… ONLY 1 time
… ONLY on the cross

… Jesus at the cross fulfilled
… the ONLY 1 yearly sprinkling
… of the atoning blood
… on the mercy seat
… ONLY by the high priest
… ONLY in the 2nd apartment
… of the sanctuary
… in the wilderness.

This is what Jesus meant when "on the cross" he said "it is finished," breathed his last breath, bowed his head and died, "sealing" the eternal "at-one-ment" decisively… and which was "revealed" by his resurrection… for our eternal benefit.

Lift Up Jesus Only and Jesus Will Lift You Up
See You At The Resurrection